Calvinism: You Must Already be Saved to Get Saved?
Robert Pate
If the foundation of your doctrine is false then everything that you build
on that foundation will be false also.
The Foundation of Calvinism is "Predestination". There is no scripture
anywhere in the Bible about anyone being predestinated to either heaven or
to hell. It is a false doctrine that evolved out of the twisted mind of a
heretic back in the mid 1500's by the name of John Calvin.
The apostles and the early church built their foundation (Faith) on Jesus
Christ and his Gospel, not on a man conceived doctrine of predestination.
"For no other foundation can man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus
Christ"
1 Corinthians 3:11
To teach that you must already be saved to get saved is an insult to human
intellect. That is the same as saying that before you buy a car you must
already own it. If you already own it why would you need to buy it? If you
are already saved why would you need to get saved again?
This is what happens when you build doctrine on false prepositions such as
predestinationism. You wind up with another false doctrine like "You must
already be saved to be saved".
Robert Pate
God doesn't make anyone believe or have faith.
That's what they teach. His grace is irresistible.
See:
Can God make us repent?
Related:
The Timelessness of God
Lon
[To another member] The only thing I'm looking for is that God made the
first move...
That's true (Ro
3:11).
He knows ahead of time who will respond...
He has a plan. He's calling out a people for his
namesake.
See:
Predestination and Will: How are predestination and election connected with
foreknowledge?
Does God Elect Everyone?
Crucible
...[I]f they never return, they were never saved to begin with.
If they fall away they were never saved.
See:
Apostasy & Eternal Security
Nanja
We should not believe Pate's lies either, but only the scriptures which
absolutely do declare the doctrine of predestination for those who are The
Called according to God's Purpose: The Elect!.
If you want to be elect--be elect.
If men never had a choice, then God is a monster when he sends people to hell.
He's not a monster--so, when you go to hell,
you're getting exactly what you deserve.
See:
Ro 8:28 McGee
Robert Pate
There is not going to be anyone in heaven that did not chose to be there
with Christ. Can you imagine what heaven would be like if people were made
to be there?
It would be hell.
You're right. Men go to heaven because they have humbled themselves before the
Lord.
fishrovmen
Pateism: You must already be reconciled to get reconciled?
Robert Pate
Nothing is ours until it is received.
They must appropriate the gift (Acts 16:30–34).
fishrovmen
You cant be both reconciled and not reconciled at the same time. You either
are reconciled or your not.
Right, so be reconciled (Heb.
11:8–16).
[To another member] So if someone doesn't receive the
reconciliation, are they reconciled?
You think you had no choice but to believe and love the Lord?
Why are you here in heaven, fishrovmen?
I'm here because I had no choice.
I'm so awesome--God couldn't resist me and I couldn't resist him.
What about appropriate his free gift of grace don't you get?
Ps. 119:11
Brother Ducky
A provided reconciliation is not reconciliation. The fact remains...at any
point in time you are reconciled to God, or you are not reconciled to God.
Yes. You cannot be kind of sort of pregnant and you can't be kind of sort of
a Christian. You've
passed from death to life
or, you
have not (1 Jn 3:14). This isn't rocket science.
HisServant
I think scripture is very clear that those that are unsaved would under no
circumstance chose salvation of their own accord without an outside
influence acting on them first.
The Lord seeks everybody (Jn 3:16, 2 Pe 3:9). Some repent.
Others do not.
Acts 2:37, 38, 11:18
Seekingtruth21
In Calvinism there is no real relationship between the two because love is a
choice and a hard one to choose at times.
"Ouch."
~ E.T.
Jer 31:3
1 Corinthians 13:7 "Love... believes all
things"
It
does.
1 Jn 3:3
flintstoned
How does anyone know they are saved?
Ro 8:16
lifeisgood
What has been predestined is the plan of God for humankind. The plan
has been predestined, not the people.
Right. Is 46:10
"God views Jesus slain before the foundation of the world. The names
are written before the foundation of the world."
Re 13:8 ~ John Piper
ttruscott
[To another member] ...[Y]ou believe he foreknew all things before
creation which includes the creation of those going to hell but created
them anyway which he did not have to do-- so,why do it!
Your opinion of God is just so low.
God does not see a future that does not yet exist. He's got a plan and
he will make it happen. He has not seen it having already happened.
See:
Is the Future Settled or Open? Dr. Lamerson vs. Enyart
rako
Eastern Orthodox teach that God foreknew what people would do, and
he chose masses of people to be saved, but that just foreknowing
that they will do something does not determine their choice...
How can he know what choice they've made until they make it (Ge
22:12).
God does not see a future that hasn't happened yet. If he has then why not cause
all believers to be born in heaven rather on this God forsaken earth? The
B.I.B.L.E.--basic instructions before leaving earth. We are born, make a
choice and die (Josh
24:15). Born once--die twice. Born twice--die once.
Re 20:6
ttruscott
Then He has no idea...if He will pull this off?
Calvinism is a lie--and God is still trustworthy. He's good today. He'll be
good tomorrow. Ps. 52:1
Nanja
God predestinated some to hell/wrath Rom. 9:22...
No, that's double predestination.
See:
What is double predestination?
Israel's rejection and God's Justice Ro 9:14-29
C.
The example of Pharaoh
(9:14–24)
1.
The facts involved (9:15–18)
a. God determined to
pardon sinful Israel with undeserved grace (9:15–16).
b. God determined to
punish sinful Pharaoh with deserved judgment (9:17–18).
2.
The fairness involved (9:14,
19–24)
a. In light of this,
is God righteous?
Yes! (9:14, 21–24).
(1) As a potter creates vessels,
God creates nations (9:14, 21–22).
(2) As a potter controls those
vessels, God controls nations (9:23–24).
b. In light of this,
is man responsible?
Yes! (9:19–20): As the
vessels have no right to criticize the potter, the nations have no right
to criticize the Lord.[1]
[1] Willmington, H. L.
(1999).
The Outline Bible (Ro
9:11–20). Wheaton, IL: Tyndale House Publishers.
Robert Pate
Right. God is just, merciful and righteous in all that he
does. This is why we can trust him. No one can trust the
Calvinist God because he is unjust, unmerciful and
unrighteous.
If he never gave men a choice, then their
complaints in hell are valid. He gives every person a
choice; so, when they go to hell they get what they
deserve. Deut. 32:4
Who can have faith in a God that predestinates people to
hell before they are born? Not me.
Not me.
And who can live with a god in eternity like that? He wouldn't want
to live with you or I either since all we'd be doing is reminding
him that he's a monster.
They say, no one deserves to go to heaven so that make God just in
all he does.
That's nice; but, that's not who God is (1 Jn 4:8). We know him.
They do not.
Phil 3:10
balut55
It took my mentor two years to get through to me. How does that
fit in with Calvinism?
They would say
my density has popped me to you.
So, when you get to heaven and someone asks why are you
here? You'll say. I had no choice but to love God.
jsanford108
This quote is taken from Mike Gendron who is noted for being
anti-Catholic.
He's not anti-Catholic. He's pro-truth (Jud
11
).
If he were anti-Catholic then he wouldn't bother telling you the
truth (Ac
20:20).
Shasta
Total Depravity as a synonym for "total inability" ...
No one seeks God (Ro
3:11). He enables men to have: eyes to see, ears to hear
and a heart to understand (Is
6:10). The Calvinist says: that offer was just for me
because I'm God's darling elite.
The historical, biblical Christian
understands that this offer has gone out to the whole world
(Jn
3:16).
He doesn't say you could not. He says you would
not: How often would I have gathered thy children
together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings,
and ye would not! Lk 13:34
Nang
Saving grace is not an offer that can be resisted.
Sure it can. Men resist God all day--every day.
That's why they're judged. Is 65:2
"I'm gonna make him an offer he can't refuse." ~ Don
Corleone, The Godfather
beloved57
You serve a different God than me.
Yep (Jn
8:44).
As a reminder Beloved57 is number 19 on
Satan, Inc. (TOL Heretics list) in "The 'Jesus is
not God' people (Non-trinitarians) category.
You serve a dumb idol...
You're projecting again (Eph
4:14).
See:
Jehovah's False Witnesses
You serve the devils freewill god...
You have a will. God can be more than you but not less.
For what reason are you requiring God to give up his
will? Why would he do that? What's in it for him?
Rom. 9:18–23
Robert Pate
God has a free will, but only within his holy, just,
merciful, righteous nature.
He is committed to righteousness. If he's committed
to righteousness today, then he will be committed to
righteousness tomorrow. If he's committed to
righteousness tomorrow, then he'll be committed to
righteousness in 10,000 years (Mal 3:6).
They want assurances; so, they image God has no will
because they don't trust him (Jer 31:3). I'm not
worried about God letting me go (1 Pe 1:5). But then
again, I know him and they do not (Phil 3:10).
beloved57
I don't know what you talking about!
How could you?
Your: eyes are turned off, your ears don't hear
and you have an evil heart of unbelief (Is
6:10). Good luck with that.
Robert Pate
God did not hate Esau.
"...God made a difference between them at
the very beginning (see Gen. 25:22–23), but
it was about fifteen hundred years before He
stated as He does here [Mal 1:3] that He
loved Jacob." McGee, J. V. (1991). Thru the
Bible commentary: The Prophets (Malachi)
(electronic ed., Vol. 33, p. 17). Nashville:
Thomas Nelson.
TulipBee
Jesus found me!
Did you seek him?
Deut 4:29 Do you go out half way to
meet him today?
Mt 14:29,
25:6
Robert Pate
The scripture says that Christ died
for everyone,
Hebrews 2:9.
Right. He died for everyone. What
men do with the gospel is up to
them.
Josh 24:15
Robert Pate
The Bible teaches that Jesus
died for the sins of the whole
world, 1 John 2:2.
Yes. Do a study on not for
ours only, whole and
world. Is there
some reason that the elite
darlings
think he died only for
them?
Shasta
John says Jesus died not
only for our sins (in your
terms the sins of the
"elect") but also for the
sins of the "elect" This
makes absolutely no sense.
Right. If you want to be
elect,
be elect.
This isn't brain surgery.
lifeisgood
...[T]he names have
to be found written
in the book.
Repent and get your name in the book (Mk 1:15). Don't stab Jesus in the
back and keep your name
in the book (Heb 10:26,
Re 3:5).
Calvinism:
You Must Already be Saved to Get Saved?