Calvinism: You Must Already be Saved to Get Saved?

Robert Pate View Post
If the foundation of your doctrine is false then everything that you build on that foundation will be false also.

The Foundation of Calvinism is "Predestination". There is no scripture anywhere in the Bible about anyone being predestinated to either heaven or to hell. It is a false doctrine that evolved out of the twisted mind of a heretic back in the mid 1500's by the name of John Calvin.

The apostles and the early church built their foundation (Faith) on Jesus Christ and his Gospel, not on a man conceived doctrine of predestination.

"For no other foundation can man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ" 1 Corinthians 3:11

To teach that you must already be saved to get saved is an insult to human intellect. That is the same as saying that before you buy a car you must already own it. If you already own it why would you need to buy it? If you are already saved why would you need to get saved again?

This is what happens when you build doctrine on false prepositions such as predestinationism. You wind up with another false doctrine like "You must already be saved to be saved".

Robert Pate
View Post
God doesn't make anyone believe or have faith.

That's what they teach. His grace is irresistible.

See:

Can God make us repent?

Related:

The Timelessness of God 

Lon View Post
[To another member] The only thing I'm looking for is that God made the first move...

That's true (Ro 3:11).

He knows ahead of time who will respond...

He has a plan. He's calling out a people for his namesake.

See:

Predestination and Will: How are predestination and election connected with foreknowledge?

Does God Elect Everyone?

Crucible View Post
...[I]f they never return, they were never saved to begin with.

If they fall away they were never saved.

See:

Apostasy & Eternal Security  

Nanja View Post
We should not believe Pate's lies either, but only the scriptures which absolutely do declare the doctrine of predestination for those who are The Called according to God's Purpose: The Elect!.

If you want to be elect--be elect. If men never had a choice, then God is a monster when he sends people to hell. He's not a monster--so, when you go to hell, you're getting exactly what you deserve.

See:

Ro 8:28 McGee

Robert Pate View Post
There is not going to be anyone in heaven that did not chose to be there with Christ. Can you imagine what heaven would be like if people were made to be there?

It would be hell. You're right. Men go to heaven because they have humbled themselves before the Lord.

fishrovmen View Post
Pateism: You must already be reconciled to get reconciled?
Robert Pate View Post
Nothing is ours until it is received.
They must appropriate the gift (Acts 16:30–34).
fishrovmen View Post
You cant be both reconciled and not reconciled at the same time. You either are reconciled or your not.

Right, so be reconciled (Heb. 11:8–16).

[To another member] So if someone doesn't receive the reconciliation, are they reconciled?

You think you had no choice but to believe and love the Lord?

Why are you here in heaven, fishrovmen?
I'm here because I had no choice. I'm so awesome--God couldn't resist me and I couldn't resist him.



What about appropriate his free gift of grace don't you get? Ps. 119:11

Brother Ducky View Post
A provided reconciliation is not reconciliation. The fact remains...at any point in time you are reconciled to God, or you are not reconciled to God.

Yes. You cannot be kind of sort of pregnant and you can't be kind of sort of a Christian. You've passed from death to life or, you have not (1 Jn 3:14). This isn't rocket science.

HisServant View Post
I think scripture is very clear that those that are unsaved would under no circumstance chose salvation of their own accord without an outside influence acting on them first.

The Lord seeks everybody (Jn 3:16, 2 Pe 3:9). Some repent. Others do not. Acts 2:37, 38, 11:18

Seekingtruth21 View Post
In Calvinism there is no real relationship between the two because love is a choice and a hard one to choose at times.

"Ouch." ~ E.T. Jer 31:3

1 Corinthians 13:7 "Love... believes all things"

It does. 1 Jn 3:3 

flintstoned View Post
How does anyone know they are saved?


Ro 8:16
lifeisgood View Post
What has been predestined is the plan of God for humankind.  The plan has been predestined, not the people.

Right. Is 46:10

"God views Jesus slain before the foundation of the world.  The names are written before the foundation of the world." Re 13:8  ~ John Piper
ttruscott View Post
[To another member] ...[Y]ou believe he foreknew all things before creation which includes the creation of those going to hell but created them anyway which he did not have to do-- so,why do it!

Your opinion of God is just so low. 


God does not see a future that does not yet exist. He's got a plan and he will make it happen. He has not seen it having already happened.

See:

Is the Future Settled or Open? Dr. Lamerson vs. Enyart
rako View Post
Eastern Orthodox teach that God foreknew what people would do, and he chose masses of people to be saved, but that just foreknowing that they will do something does not determine their choice...

How can he know what choice they've made until they make it (Ge 22:12). God does not see a future that hasn't happened yet. If he has then why not cause all believers to be born in heaven rather on this God forsaken earth? The B.I.B.L.E.--basic instructions before leaving earth. We are born, make a choice and die (Josh 24:15). Born once--die twice. Born twice--die once. Re 20:6

ttruscott View Post
Then He has no idea...if He will pull this off?


Calvinism is a lie--and God is still trustworthy. He's good today. He'll be good tomorrow. Ps. 52:1
Nanja View Post
God predestinated some to hell/wrath Rom. 9:22...


No, that's double predestination.

See:

What is double predestination?

Israel's rejection and God's Justice Ro 9:14-29

C.  The example of Pharaoh (9:14–24)

1.   The facts involved (9:15–18)

a.   God determined to pardon sinful Israel with undeserved grace (9:15–16).

b.   God determined to punish sinful Pharaoh with deserved judgment (9:17–18).

2.   The fairness involved (9:14, 19–24)

a.   In light of this, is God righteous? Yes! (9:14, 21–24).

(1) As a potter creates vessels, God creates nations (9:14, 21–22).

(2) As a potter controls those vessels, God controls nations (9:23–24).

b.   In light of this, is man responsible? Yes! (9:19–20): As the vessels have no right to criticize the potter, the nations have no right to criticize the Lord.[1]


[1] Willmington, H. L. (1999). The Outline Bible (Ro 9:11–20). Wheaton, IL: Tyndale House Publishers.

Robert Pate View Post
Right. God is just, merciful and righteous in all that he does. This is why we can trust him. No one can trust the Calvinist God because he is unjust, unmerciful and unrighteous.

If he never gave men a choice, then their complaints in hell are valid.  He gives every person a choice; so, when they go to hell they get what they deserve. Deut. 32:4

Who can have faith in a God that predestinates people to hell before they are born? Not me.  

Not me. And who can live with a god in eternity like that? He wouldn't want to live with you or I either since all we'd be doing is reminding him that he's a monster.

They say, no one deserves to go to heaven so that make God just in all he does. That's nice; but, that's not who God is (1 Jn 4:8). We know him. They do not. Phil 3:10
balut55 View Post
It took my mentor two years to get through to me. How does that fit in with Calvinism?


They would say my density has popped me to you.

So, when you get to heaven and someone asks why are you here? You'll say. I had no choice but to love God.
jsanford108 View Post
This quote is taken from Mike Gendron who is noted for being anti-Catholic.

He's not anti-Catholic. He's pro-truth (Jud 11 ). If he were anti-Catholic then he wouldn't bother telling you the truth (Ac 20:20).
Shasta View Post
Total Depravity as a synonym for "total inability" ...


No one seeks God (Ro 3:11). He enables men to have: eyes to see, ears to hear and a heart to understand (Is 6:10). The Calvinist says: that offer was just for me because I'm God's darling elite.   The historical, biblical Christian understands that this offer has gone out to the whole world (Jn 3:16).

He doesn't say you could not. He says you would not: How often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not! Lk 13:34

Nang View Post
Saving grace is not an offer that can be resisted.

Sure it can. Men resist God all day--every day. That's why they're judged. Is 65:2

"I'm gonna make him an offer he can't refuse." ~ Don Corleone, The Godfather
beloved57 View Post
You serve a different God than me.


Yep (Jn 8:44).

As a reminder Beloved57 is number 19 on Satan, Inc. (TOL Heretics list) in "The 'Jesus is not God' people (Non-trinitarians) category.

You serve a dumb idol...

You're projecting again (Eph 4:14).

See:

Jehovah's False Witnesses

You serve the devils freewill god...

You have a will. God can be more than you but not less. For what reason are you requiring God to give up his will? Why would he do that? What's in it for him? Rom. 9:18–23
Robert Pate View Post
God has a free will, but only within his holy, just, merciful, righteous nature.


He is committed to righteousness. If he's committed to righteousness today, then he will be committed to righteousness tomorrow. If he's committed to righteousness tomorrow, then he'll be committed to righteousness in 10,000 years (Mal 3:6).

They want assurances; so, they image God has no will because they don't trust him (Jer 31:3). I'm not worried about God letting me go (1 Pe 1:5). But then again, I know him and they do not (Phil 3:10).
beloved57 View Post
 I don't know what you talking about!


How could you? Your: eyes are turned off, your ears don't hear and you have an evil heart of unbelief (Is 6:10). Good luck with that.
Robert Pate View Post
God did not hate Esau.

"...God made a difference between them at the very beginning (see Gen. 25:22–23), but it was about fifteen hundred years before He stated as He does here [Mal 1:3] that He loved Jacob." McGee, J. V. (1991). Thru the Bible commentary: The Prophets (Malachi) (electronic ed., Vol. 33, p. 17). Nashville: Thomas Nelson.
TulipBee View Post
Jesus found me!


Did you seek him? Deut 4:29 Do you go out half way to meet him today? Mt 14:29, 25:6
Robert Pate View Post
The scripture says that Christ died for everyone,
Hebrews 2:9.

Right. He died for everyone. What men do with the gospel is up to them. Josh 24:15
Robert Pate View Post
The Bible teaches that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, 1 John 2:2.


Yes. Do a study on not for ours only, whole and world.  Is there some reason that the elite darlings think he died only for them?
Shasta View Post
John says Jesus died not only for our sins (in your terms the sins of the "elect") but also for the sins of the "elect" This makes absolutely no sense.


Right. If you want to be elect, be elect. This isn't brain surgery.
lifeisgood View Post
...[T]he names have to be found written in the book.
Repent and get your name in the book (Mk 1:15). Don't stab Jesus in the back and keep your name in the book (Heb 10:26, Re 3:5).

Calvinism: You Must Already be Saved to Get Saved?